Bookz & sheeyat

I read the Ciardi translation in school. It’s excellent, and more than good enough for most. I’ve settled on Durling as my favourite - it is very thorough. I’ve glanced at Sinclair, but it’s not for me. Hollander is wonderful, though maybe not for a first timer. If you want a cheap paper copy, you can’t go wrong with the Penguin Musa edition.

Honestly, I might recommend the new-ish Clive James version. I haven’t looked at it in detail, but it seems to be straightforward and stylish.

Either way, I’ve compiled the best ones here so you can compare for yourself: LINK

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Fantastic Chris, thanks so much. I looked in to this some more before bed last night which gave me some new perspectives. I landed on Sinclair initially by looking at single sentence comparisons between 15 translators (a blog post somewhere), where I thought Sinclair was consistently both on point and true to Dante’s original Italian. But what I did last night was to compare larger sections, and then I began to question whether I really want a prose translation. It’s good since it’s readable and focuses on content, but language does add to how you perceive the narrative and my imagination was sparked more by the translations in blank verse.

From what I’ve deduced the most widely respected verse translation today appears to be Allen Mandelbaum’s - and I did like it, but I found it rather wordy. In particular more wordy than Dante’s original Italian, which tells me the language has been flowered out. My personal favourites from the ones I was able to compare last night were instead indeed Musa and Hollander, who were more on point and who seemed to use a language closer to Dante’s own. My gripe with Hollander however was that as I read him I kept running in to sentences which either didn’t read like proper English to me, or where I would have misinterpreted their meaning. As a Princeton professor of literature he clearly isn’t wrong, but it does tell me like you say above that his translation would only be making it difficult for myself as a foreigner and first time reader. Musa however I haven’t been able to shoot down yet. In verse, yet perfectly readable, on point, and seemingly similar to Dante’s Italian in both content and style. So right now it looks like Sinclair for prose and Musa for verse - but I will study the first few pages of all these before making up my mind.

Curious about audio books. I’m finding music too distracting when I work now. Does anybody have a recommendation? I almost exclusively read non fiction but am thinking about something fiction with a distinct narrative thread I can follow slightly passively but that still says something…

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Yeah, I have read The Loser (in Italian: il soccombente). A deep account on the relationship between life, artistry, and the desire to prevail. The main characters - the narrator and Wertheimer - are deep and secluded personalities who apparently fail to find their place in life and society, a feature common to most of Bernhard’s characters. The musical circumstances are unlikely (Gould taking lessons from Horowitz in Salzburg is something that could never have happened) but music here is just a part of the setting, the book is not about music itself.
Strongly recommended, as are the other books by Bernhard I have read so far (Frost, Woodcutters, Gargoyles).

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The budding Dante scholar rides on here - and the turns are quick. I’ve compared the first 50 lines or so of these translations and Musa is out. He does write verse, I suppose, but it’s annoyingly enough not properly parsed (the excerpts I had read earlier were), so it reads in a way which to me rather feels like awkward prose. I have to say Sinclair pales a bit as well when seen next to Durling. I appreciate Sinclair’s fidelity, but Durling simply writes better and chooses his words more carefully. It’s still a prose translation however, which I think I’ve left behind at this point.

Ciardi and James both take too many liberties for my taste, so left to consider are Hollander and Mandelbaum. These are the two which have felt most “right” to me. Hollander’s translation gives a functional and scholarly impression (as did Durling’s prose), and I like it in spite of that it’s one of the more difficult to read. With Mandelbaum however, it all just seems to fall in place. The opening here isn’t at all as padded as I found with the excerpts I read earlier, and despite that it’s written in clear verse it’s both the most flowing and evocative of all translations I’ve looked at. His text is beautifully metered and has a rare combination of poetic tact and narrative urgency to it, as appears to be the case with Dante’s original, and though I don’t always agree with his choice of words or phrasing from what I can tell he’s spot on with the content, with minimal intervention of his own.

It’s impossible to get a complete grasp of all translations around of this work, not least by trying to assess them from their first 50 lines, but of the ones I see Danteists talking about Mandelbaum does appear to be the one for me. I won’t get Dante’s terza rima of course, but it seems to me to hit the sweet spot best between fidelity, poetry, and readability.

Ooh, give Longfellow a try. I remember being quite impressed with his trans. (as well as a fan of his own poetry). It’s on project Gutenberg. (published 1867)

@xsdc - I use this site for students (and myself), it’s got lots of short stories translated into English. They’ve just emailed me to say they have one of Tokarczuk’s. FYI.

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Longfellow appears to be one of the classic translations, and it’s by far the most widely offered in book form, but I’ve left it be since people say it’s almost a romantic paraphrase of Dante’s original. I’m sure it’s a great read, but I’d really like to get as close to Dante as possible in the English language. Bach on piano as it were, but preferably not Bach/Liszt.

Since I’ve made such fuss about this - for anyone not acquainted with Dante his Comedy is written in early 14th C Italian in a short trimmed verse form called terza rima. There might be more to this than I’ve realized, but as you read the original text - even without understanding Italian - you get a feel for the melody of the writing, the (to me) surprisingly spartan use of language, as well as the rhyme structure which is ABA, BCB, CDC, etc. It moves the text forward like a train of sorts, and I’m sure it’s magnificent to read in Italian but it’s of course impossible to transfer to any other language without a big hit to textual fidelity. I initially thought this maximum textual fidelity was what I was after which is why Sinclair was my first pick, who simply discards the poetic structure of the original and translates it sentence by sentence in to plain prose. The feeling I got as I read that however was that of a cumbersomely written tale. It doesn’t feel natural. Another way of doing it is to retain it as poetry and translate it line by line in to blank verse, which is essentially what Hollander does, and then - to me - that cumbersome tale suddenly transforms in to medieval mysticism. No cowboy novel vibes anymore, and the way it’s written makes sense. A step further, perhaps, is Mandelbaum who also pads his verse to make it properly measured. With Hollander you still have to fight your way through the text a bit and you can tell every word has been turned and considered, but for me Mandelbaum’s metered verse made it read like running water - naturally, beautifully, and with a melody and rhythm which only helped you through the text.

Examples: here are the opening 21 lines from Inferno, first in Dante’s Italian and then in two prose and two verse translations discussed above.

Original Italian (terza rima)

Nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita
mi ritrovai per una selva oscura,
ché la diritta via era smarrita.

Ahi quanto a dir qual era è cosa dura
esta selva selvaggia e aspra e forte
che nel pensier rinova la paura!

Tant’ è amara che poco è più morte;
ma per trattar del ben ch’i’ vi trovai,
dirò de l’altre cose ch’i’ v’ho scorte.

Io non so ben ridir com’ i’ v’intrai,
tant’ era pien di sonno a quel punto
che la verace via abbandonai.

Ma poi ch’i’ fui al piè d’un colle giunto,
là dove terminava quella valle
che m’avea di paura il cor compunto,

guardai in alto e vidi le sue spalle
vestite già de’ raggi del pianeta
che mena dritto altrui per ogne calle.

Allor fu la paura un poco queta,
che nel lago del cor m’era durata
la notte ch’i’ passai con tanta pieta.

Sinclair (prose)

In the middle of the journey of our life I came to myself within a dark wood where the straight way was lost. Ah, how hard a thing it is to tell of that wood, savage and harsh and dense, the thought of which renews my fear! So bitter is it that death is hardly more. But to give account of the good which I found there I will tell of the other things I noted there.
I cannot rightly tell how I entered there, I was so full of sleep at that moment when I left the true way; but when I had reached the foot of a hill at the end of that valley which had pierced my heart with fear I looked up and saw its shoulders already clothed with the beams of the planet that leads men straight on every road. Then the fear was quieted a little which had continued in the lake of my heart during the night I had spent so piteously

Durling (prose)

In the middle of the journey of our life, I came to myself in a dark wood, for the straight way was lost. Ah, how hard a thing it is to say what that wood was, so savage and harsh and strong that the thought of it renews my fear! It is so bitter that death is little more so! But to treat of the good that I found there, I will tell of the other things I saw.
I cannot really say how I entered there, so full of sleep was I at the point when I abandoned the true way. But when I had reached the foot of a hill, where the valley ended that had pierced my heart with fear, I looked on high and saw its shoulders clothed already with the rays of the planet that leads us straight on every path. Then was the fear a little quieted that in the lake of my heart had lasted through the night I passed with so much anguish.

Hollander (verse)

Midway in the journey of our life
I came to myself in a dark wood,
for the straight way was lost.

Ah, how hard it is to tell
the nature of that wood, savage, dense and harsh
the very thought of it renews my fear!

It is so bitter death is hardly more so.
But to set forth the good I found
I will recount the other things I saw.

How I came there I cannot really tell,
I was so full of sleep
when I forsook the one true way.

But when I reached the foot of a hill,
there where the valley ended
that had pierced my heart with fear,

looking up, I saw its shoulders
arrayed in the first light of the planet
that leads men straight, no matter what their road.

Then the fear that had endured
in the lake of my heart, all the night
I spent in such distress, was calmed.

Mandelbaum (verse)

When I had journeyed half of our life’s way,
I found myself within a shadowed forest,
for I had lost the path that does not stray.

Ah, it is hard to speak of what it was,
that savage forest, dense and difficult,
which even in recall renews my fear:

so bitter-death is hardly more severe!
But to retell the good discovered there,
I’ll also tell the other things I saw.

I cannot clearly say how I had entered
the wood; I was so full of sleep just at
the point where I abandoned the true path.

But when I’d reached the bottom of a hill-
it rose along the boundary of the valley
that had harassed my heart with so much fear-

I looked on high and saw its shoulders clothed
already by the rays of that same planet
which serves to lead men straight along all roads.

At this my fear was somewhat quieted;
for through the night of sorrow I had spent,
the lake within my heart felt terror present.

Sinclair’s translation is good, but already here some chinks in his linguistic armour begin to show as it were. Note the three repeated “there” around the line break for instance, and choices like “I will tell of the other things I noted there” where the word “noted” makes me look at Dante (the character) as going in to this forest with the mindset of an astutely observant police detective - which I’m not sure is the way Dante (the author) meant it. In Durling, no such problems.

In the verse translations I think Hollander scores most points if you compare line by line, but Mandelbaum’s edge - as I perceived it - becomes clearer if you look over the distance of a page or so. His content is the same, but of all translations I’ve looked at so far - prose or verse - this is the only one which has pulled me in and made me get “lost in a book”. It flows so naturally, and there’s a real sense of that you’re reading someone who is burning to tell you something.

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These are all translations which scored highly with me btw. As a reference point, here’s the first three lines from one I didn’t like.

Mary Jo Bang (verse)

Stopped mid-motion in the middle
Of what we call our life, I looked up and saw no sky -
Only a dense cage of leaf, tree, and twig. I was lost.

Maybe I don’t need to explain it… It becomes something else.

Wow, that’s jarring. It’s creative, but I don’t like it.

Jarring is exactly the word. Dante’s original is both clear and simple - I don’t get why you wouldn’t just translate it straight off, like Hollander does. I think Bang’s translation is a travesty. It sounds like something out of a cheap magazine, it’s neither true to Dante’s text or spirit.

Tru, dats da one I read on my own as well

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How did you like it?

–> the poem, not the translation

I read the one by Allen Mandelbaum in Everyman Classics. However I only finished Inferno (twice).

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I can’t wait to get started on it myself. I know very little about literature, but I know that those who do say Dante and Shakespeare have divided the world among them - and I adore Shakespeare. How did you like the poem?

Mandelbaum is the translation I’m going for as well I think. I haven’t completely ruled out Hollander yet.

It had moments of great poetic sensation, but he’s not even in the same universe as Shakespeare. Or it doesn’t come across in English.

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I guess part of the monument with Dante’s achievement is the mechanics behind it. Imagine yourself writing 14 000 lines of poetry where each is subjected to having exactly 11 syllables, form groups of interlocking tercets, and with the final word in each being part of a trio of strictly feminine rhymes which are barely ever repeated across the work. Now also do that in a time which predates book printing, and in a way so that it has content and poetry which is still very much alive 700 years later.

:orangutan:

The mechanics is what you won’t get in English, but the content, the spirit and a bit of the poetry should still be there (which maybe is what ultimately matters… the rest is just blinding virtuosity).

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